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| Author: | vpelleri [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:35 pm ] |
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As almost all luthiers know, you can't make a sharp instrument without sharp tools (Bob's wife's cookies excepted, although they are quite tasty I hear) I've been thinking about trading some dough (not cookie dough) for a motorized sharpening system like the Veritas or Tormek. Question: should I go for the zoot that Bob has or are any of these things worth the exspense? Other question: What do you use to keep everything sharp? Art |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:56 pm ] |
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IMHO...go for Bob's Zoot. You can do just as well with the scary sharp method...sandpaper on plate glass. |
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| Author: | MSpencer [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:57 pm ] |
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second on that! |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:59 pm ] |
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thirded! |
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| Author: | Mark Tripp [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:31 pm ] |
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Make that fourthed... -Mark |
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| Author: | Dave Anderson [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:37 pm ] |
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Its unanimous so far- Go with Zootmans' zoot! |
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| Author: | Miketobey [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:42 pm ] |
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Veto here. And probably sounding arrogant,real arrogant. If you are not satisfied and confident in the edge quality of your tools some of the fun goes away.Yes, with persistence,one can build a fine guitar with glass shards.Now this next part will irritate many---ever try to properly hone a gouge on sandpaper(even really good stuff)? Are you using a planned system,possibly with a jig now? Do your chisels cleanly slice through softwood end grain? ( the real world test of sharp) Have you ever folded the edge of a chisel on wood? Do your chisels have good steel that will take and hold an edge on exotics? Go to "Wood net forum" handtools,search sharpening and you can learn more than you wanted to know about mechanized honing versus hand-freehand vs. jig. Tormek vs. LV and Lap-Sharp. I haven't been worth a darn on guitar building progress lately-mostly frozen in fear of failure- but my edge tools are killers. Now-my take on it- if you have the $, a Tormek with the "woodturners" jig set, a very hard Arkansas stone and a good rough/smooth strop will give frighteningly sharp edges to most all tools used by luthiers. About $500-600 total. That is a bunch of ZOOT. I use hand planes for thickness on most everything I build(Lots besides the guitars I am now struggling with)and finish with a scraper plane and card scraper. I use a Tormek on most all edges and finish with a Hard Black Arkansas stone and a really hard leather strop. Now with my little rant out, I suggest that a fine combination is the DMT Diasharp and 8000 Norton waterstone set on sale at Craftsman Studio(google) and a Veritas Mk. II jig, and maybe an Oar jig(special for gouges);they will keep you in sharp,very sharp tools for the rest of your life. No messy oil, no slippy-slidy, no tearing,no dust, no electricity;just a little bit of muddy slurry from the waterstone. Between $250-300.Yup, pretty arrogant sounding, but fairly honest and accurate.MT |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:55 pm ] |
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Mike, you got a real point there and i feel a little guilty for assuming things concerning Art's question.  In all honesty, getting zoot is always nice but having the right tools to work with it should come first, tough decision when one loves wood as much as we do but it's feasible when thinking that zoot will always be there after the priorities are set straight.
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:22 pm ] |
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I had this same debate with a local furniture maker. He offered to do my chisels and plane irons on his Tormak system. Before taking them over to his shop I scary sharpened all but one chisel and plane iron. He agreed that my sharpened blades didn't require the Tormak treatment. However, he did sharpen the dull blades on his Tormak and it produced equivalent results, albeit a bit faster. I'd still spend the $400 on the zoot. BTW...my planes make curls on hard maple end grain  |
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| Author: | Mark Tripp [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:41 pm ] |
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I guess I've been doing scary sharp for so long, I just take for granted that sharp tools are a given. You can get a Veritas MK II honing jig for $48.50 from Lee Valley, or get the Eclipse like Todd said. A glass plate, or a piece of 3/4 in. MDF and some various grits of sandpaper and you are good to go. I have a coarse diamond stone for new tools, but once I have a tool sharpened and the micro-bevel honed, it literally takes me about 2 minutes to return the tool to sharpness. AND I never have to flatten a stone. Plus $40 - $50 bucks worth of quality abrasive sheets will last a long, long time. Many ways to skin a cat tho'. I'd still vote for the zoot over anything motorized... -Mark |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:35 pm ] |
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I say go for the zoot! Take it from me, if there's something that you see that really gets your attention and you really want it, GET IT!!! I've only been building for a short while, but I already have 2-3 sets of zoot that I missed out on because I thought they were too expensive or that my current skills weren't up to par and all that jazz. Well I can tell you that I regret it immensely! Worse case scenario, the wood will be an investment. If you don't use it, you can probably sell it at a profit. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:33 pm ] |
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Now i'm thorn apart!  I guess it all depends on where you're at, if you're new to lutherie and have very few woodworking skills, i'd go for the tools right away, buying only the cheapest woods for learning but once you have a couple of guitars built, i'd look for interesting zoot as a great investment for the future .
Depends also on the money available and we can't always resist temptation when we see pics like the ones on the SWAP MEET forum! Ask me how i know! 
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| Author: | Billy T [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:41 pm ] |
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Buy Zoot! Practice Sharpening! Problem solved! 
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| Author: | Kim [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:53 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Alain Desforges] Worse case scenario, the wood will be an investment. If you don't use it, you can probably sell it at a profit.[/QUOTE] Yeah Al, that just what I keep till'in her, but some people are too pig headed to listen to good reason...just don't go tell'in her I said so or I'm for it. Don't go gett'in me wrong now, I'm the man of the house and I always have the final word...."yes dear"
Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:00 pm ] |
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I have the last word here too, and when she asks me to go do some groceries, i tell her : ahem! when i'm done with the vacuum honey!
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| Author: | Martin Turner [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:52 pm ] |
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Japanese water stones and a honing compound charged leather strop for me. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:21 pm ] |
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I use a 1000/4000 water stone, and just recently upgraded from the original to the Mk2 Vertitas jig. I needed to sharpen up the 1/2 inch chisel I use to clear the lac under FBs and bridges on two guitars. I had used the system on this chisel once before, and with the gauge set for the same angle, repeated the setup and had the chisel resharpened in all of two minutes - cut thru the lac clean as a whistle. With the mark 1 there was always some fooling around to get the angle just right ...no more. 60 bucks well spent... this thing rocks. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:06 am ] |
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I'm normally the first guy to recommend buying wood, but I have to say I for one am sick of sharpening my chisels by hand. Give me More Power... I would love to own a Tormek or some other good sharpening system. I own bunches of zoot, so that's an easy choice for me at this stage of the game. Wood always came first to me, but the more I work that wood, the more I wish I had invested first in a quality sharpening system for my tools. I HATE sharpening by hand, it takes too long and I have too little time to spare. It makes my fingers sore too, from keeping downward pressure on the blade. Give me power. |
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| Author: | Colby Horton [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:57 am ] |
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Are most of you using a honing guide with water stones and oil stones?? I have been using the sandpaper and glass method because stones seem to get hollowed and uneven really quick when using a honing guide. Maybe if it was done without a guide using figure 8 patterns the stone would stay flat. Do you have to have a guide to get the best edge possible?? |
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| Author: | Wayne Clark [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:26 am ] |
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I would also say feed your WAS. The Tormek is tempting, but $400 can buy some really nice wood. I always use a guide when I sharpen both chisels and blades. I find that when I try to free-hand it, I end up with a rounded edge. |
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| Author: | John How [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:20 am ] |
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Well I have more zoot (thanks to Bob) than I can stand at the moment, and now I have the Veritas MkII power sharpener that Lee Valley sells, and while Mike still may have sharper tools than I do, I spend very little time (and I have little time to spare) keeping them sharp enough to execute the needed cuts in my zoot. I am an happy camper! |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:23 am ] |
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Glass, sandpaper (top quality, down to 2000 grit), Veritas jig. Scary sharp. Quick. Easy. Never seen the need for a powered system. Check out the tips in issue 184 of Fine Woodworking. |
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| Author: | Miketobey [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:42 am ] |
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Hold on here. I'm arrogant, but not enough to lay claim to the sharpest tools around. And I have never denigrated an LV product -because I've never gotten anything from them that was disappointing. I was trying to send the OP to a world of alternatives. The Tormek is not the only or final answer.Power is not the only solution. A reliable, comfortable jig of some sort takes out some variables for most people(1/3).Abrasives that one is comfortable with is a possible ingredient(1/3)Experience/practice(1/3)Characteristics of the tools to be honed(1/3,ha)more factors.Range of use of the edged tool(1/3 ha-ha). OK-the ubiquitous desert island;my chisels and planes and saws? "Oilstones -long and wide-in various grits,jigs from scrap firewood(or totally freehand,which, on my honor, I really can do)spit,patience."Humbly, your o'bdt svt, Mike Tobey, Esq. |
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| Author: | John How [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:54 am ] |
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Hi Mike, I likewise didn't mean to sound like I thought you were as "ornery as you sometimes seem to be", I was just pokin' fun but my time seems to be in short supply so there lies my shortcoming. I'd rather cut wood than sharpen a chisel. Happy whitlin. |
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| Author: | Scooter B [ Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:54 am ] |
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FWIW I have been reading up on the Scary Sharp system and an "updated" version. For those unfamiliar the modified version suggests either marble tile or a type of flat stone from a chef or baking supply store (insted of glass) and six to eight grades of sandpaper. An adjustable jig for achieving and maintianing the correct angle on the tool for your edge. It also incorporates stroping with charged leather and polishing compounds to suit your needs. They sound equally capable but one is cheaper and takes more elbow grease. |
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